[diggers350] Digest Number 212

Heather Glaisyer heather at teknopunx.co.uk
Mon Apr 8 21:57:54 BST 2002

Thankyou, JT, for reminding me so eloquently, why I'm not a socialist.
Socialism is absolutely, totally and completely incompatable with
Independance for Scotland, and as far as I can see, incompatable with any
kind of individual independance. What a fucking crock. I just have to post
the dead dogma sketch, yet once again, in response to such laughable bollox.
> Summary:Anarchist parody of Monty Python\'s Dead Parrot sketch inspired
> going to the SWP\'s Marxism 2001.
> >
> > Dead Dogma Sketch (apologies to Monty Python)
> > *********************************************************
> >
> > A revolutionary goes into Marxism 2001
> >
> > Revolutionary: ?Ello, I wish to register a complaint
> > (the SWP does not respond)
> > R: ?Ello, Stalinist?
> > SWP: What do you mean ?Stalinist??
> > R: I?m sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
> > SWP: We don't have time for your contribution, sorry.
> > R: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this ideology what
> embraced not half an hour ago at this very conference.
> > SWP: Oh yes, the, uh, the Russian Bolshevik... What's, uh...  wrong with
> it?
> > R: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. Its dead, that's what's
> wrong with it!
> > SWP: No, no, its, uh, . . . its resting.
> > R: Look, matey, I know a dead ideology when I see one, I'm looking at
> right now.
> > SWP: No no, its not dead, its resting! Remarkable ideology the Russian
> Bolshevik, idn'it, ay? Beautiful rhetoric.
> > R: The rhetoric don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
> > SWP: Nononononono, no, no, its resting!
> > R: All right then, if its resting, I'll wake it up!
> > (shouting at the meeting)
> > ?Ello Mister Bolshevik! Do you know that Lenin and Trotsky advocated
> dictatorship....
> > (SWP ignores point)
> > SWP: There, we replied to you.
> > R: No you didn't, that was you ignoring what I said.
> > SWP: We never!
> > R: Yes, you did!
> > SWP: We never, ever ignore anything...
> > R: (making the same point repeatedly)
> > Lenin and Trotsky eliminated workers democracy in the army and in the
> workplace. The Bolsheviks disbanded soviets with non-Bolshevik majorities.
> All before the start of the Civil War. Lenin and Trotsky both advocated
> party dictatorship. Moreover, they explicitly argued for it. This is your
> nine o'clock alarm call!
> > (raises points at meeting and watches them get ignored).
> > R: Now that's what I call a dead ideology.
> > SWP: No, no.... No, it was stunned by the counter-revolution!
> > R: STUNNED?!?
> > SWP: Yeah, counter-revolution stunned it, just as it was about to
> implement socialism, workers? power and democracy! The Russian Bolshevik
> stuns easily, comrade.
> > R: Um . . . now look ... now look mate, I've definitely ?ad enough of
> this. This ideology is definitely deceased and when I embraced it not half
> an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of freedom and democracy
> 1921 was due to it being tired and shagged out following a prolonged civil
> war, yet these events occurred before it started.
> > SWP: Well, its... its, ah ... probably pining for 1917.
> > R: PININ? for 1917!?!?!?! What kind of talk is that? Look, why did it
> overthrow soviet democracy the moment it got rejected in the soviet
> elections in spring 1918? Why did it abolish by decree elected soldier
> committees in March 1918? Why did it reject workers? self-management by
> factory committees and advocate one-man management with dictatorial powers
> in the spring of 1918?
> > SWP: The Russian Bolshevik prefers centralised power! Only that is true
> democracy?local elections, soldier councils and factory committees don't
> matter when you have a central government elected by the soviets.
> ideology, id'nit, squire?  Lovely rhetoric!
> > R: Look, I took the liberty of examining that ideology when I got home,
> and I discovered that the only reason that it was still in power in 1921
> that it had imposed a one party dictatorship, repressed all worker
> crushed waves of strikes and protests and, finally, suppressed the
> revolt (which was demanding free soviet elections). Moreover, it justified
> party dictatorship and claimed it had to be used in every revolution.
> > (pause)
> > SWP: Well, o'course it had to do that! If it hadn't crushed those
> movements then the Whites would have won and no more soviet power. Give it
> another chance and VOOM! Socialism!
> > R: VOOM!?! Mate, this ideology wouldn't go 'voom' if you put four
> volts through it! Soviet Power without soviet elections? Socialism without
> workers management of production?  Secret Police? It is 'childish
> to draw a distinction between dictatorship by the party and by the class?
> The dictatorship of the proletariat is impossible in any other way but
> through the dictatorship of the Communist Party?? Its bleeding demised!
> > SWP: No no, its pining!
> > R: Its not pining! Its passed on! This ideology is dead!  It has long
> ceased to be revolutionary (if it ever was)! Its expired and become a
> dictatorship! Its a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! Its
> processes are now history! It shuffled away from the socialist movement,
> imposed party dictatorship, and justified it time and time again! This is
> ex-socialist theory!  SWP: Well, I had better ignore what you are saying
> keep repeating the dogma.
> > (he takes a quick peek to the Central Committee)
> > SWP: Sorry comrade, I've checked and your three minutes are up and we're
> right out of time.
> > R: I see. I see, I get the picture.
> > SWP: Fancy a copy of Socialist Worker?
> > (pause)
> > R: Pray, does it talk about anarchism, the real socialism from below?
> > SWP: Nnnnot really.
> >
> > for more on anarchism and Leninism
> > (and details of quotes and facts mentioned above):
> >
> > http://www.infoshop.org/faq/append3.html
> > http://www.infoshop.org/texts/iso.html
> >
> > For more about anarchism:
> >
> > http://www.anarchistfaq.org
> > http://www.infoshop.org
> > http://www.struggle.ws/wsm.html
> >
> >

>    Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 13:30:33 +0100 (BST)
>    From: Jan Pole <anticapitalist2 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Nationalism:   Poison   for   the   Working   Class
> Across the world nationalism has been rearing its ugly head again, most
> notably in the cockpit of violence that is the Middle East. As we write
> Palestinian and Israeli workers continue to butcher one another in a
> senseless round of tit-for-tat atrocities.
> As the shooting of Palestinian children and the suicide bombings aimed
> at Israeli workers in Jerusalem continue, socialists have no hesitation
> in stating that this violence is in no way, shape or form in the
> interest of the working class of wage and salary earners.
> Many on the political left will argue that Palestinian nationalism is
> somehow progressive and different to Israeli nationalism and should
> therefore be supported (in a similar way to why they often think Welsh
> and Scottish nationalism should be encouraged in Britain and Irish
> Nationalism in Ulster).
> As socialists, we say that this is a dangerous poison that is being
> spread by the left and that no side engaged in such conflict can either
> speak for the working class as a whole or be an example to it.
> History is replete with minorities in existing states using terrorist
> methods so that a new state may be formed or territory transferred from
> the "ownership" of one state to another. The working class of wage and
> salary earners is never in a position to benefit from this process, it
> is only in a position to suffer.
> The working class - by definition the class that does not possess any
> significant titles to land or private property, including capital - has
> quite literally nothing to gain from a situation where one group of
> rulers and owners is replaced by another group.
> In the nineteenth century when the modern capitalist system was
> expanding across the globe "national liberation" struggles, typically
> led by a local growing capitalist class against the old autocratic
> empires, were part of the process which swept away the old political
> arrangements and opened the way forward for liberal democracy and the
> development of capitalist methods of production.
> It was often argued that it was in the interests of the working class
> during this time to take the side of the capitalists against the old
> autocracies like the Ottoman Empire and the Russian Empire, etc. It was
> said that this process would open the way up for working class
> organisation and for the development of an advanced industrial system
> which is a prerequisite for a socialist society of abundance and free
> access to available wealth.
> Since then, the capitalist system has become a world system. The
> alleged justification for the working class taking sides in 'national
> liberation' struggles has now gone if ever it existed and today all
> such struggles are just deadly battles between sections of the
> capitalist class, even though it is the workers - imbued with
> nationalist poison - that naturally enough end up doing the fighting
> and dying.
> We argue that every nation state is by its very nature anti-working
> class. The "nation" is a myth as there can be no community of interests
> between two classes in antagonism with one another, the non-owners in
> society and the owners (the workers and the capitalists).
> And the state ultimately exists only to defend the property interests
> of the owning class at any given point in history - which is why modern
> states across the world send the police and army in to break strikes
> and otherwise seek to protect the interests of the capitalists and
> "business" at every turn.
> The goal of the socialist movement is not to assist in the creation of
> even more states but to establish a real world community without
> frontiers where all states as they currently exist will be destroyed.
> In a socialist society communities, towns and cities will have the
> opportunity to thrive - and people will no doubt feel an attachment to
> places that are real and tangible - but the 'imagined communities' that
> are nation states will be consigned to the history books where they
> belong.
> Our message to the workers who call themselves Israeli and the workers
> who call themselves Palestinian is to cease the slaughter. As workers
> you have no real community of interests to gain from your present
> struggle. You do, however, have an "imagined community" you should lose
> and an entire world to win instead.
> Jan Pole
> www.worldsocialism.org
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