Tax the rich - keeping it simple

[Mark]

I wholeheartedly agree with Tony. LVT advocates all talk from the same,
unwavering, set script. However, I happen to think there is a case for a
development tax over a certain level, say £500,000, at the point of sale
of a property. Like income tax, this could be progressive, with further
levels of tax at a few other further thresholds, say £1 million, then £2
million ..etc. This would affect some areas such as the city of London,
Kensington & Chelsea, Hampstead, St. George's Hill ...more than others, 
where the market value of property goes way beyond what would be
considered a high value in other areas of modest income differential, say
Glasgow

Mark

> Jock, Yours is a quasi-evangelical misnomer - LVT won't redistribute land
> -
> but take it away from the not-for-profit landowners. Its the next step of
> universal enslavement to money after the buying and selling of land which
> Winstanley and the Diggers rightly condemned.
>
> Like all other forms of wealth, land under LVT will go to the super rich
> and to the corporations.
>
> Land Tax is the most frightening thing to hit the UK - as I said - since
> Domesday. And will force even the humblest smallholder or subsistence
> farmer to 'go industrial' or sell up.
>
> Just like the council tax replacing the rates it will shift the tax burden
> from the wealthy to the poor, forcing them to work their land to death, be
> serfs, or starve.
>
> Just like all other forms of slavery and the original development tax in
> the Town and Country Planning Act in the 1940's it will be sold to the
> public as a B&Q 'fix-all' but will gradually be used to divest 'let-it-be'
> minimal management landowners of their estates. To be snapped up by rich
> investors.
>
> At the risk of upsetting Winstanley  - ;-)  -There's not a lot wrong with
> individual ownership of land these days so long as
> 1. its not too much and
> 2. others have rights to pass over it etc.
>
> If we want a just society we must only tax luxuries, the wealthy and the
> wealth they create - NEVER bread, water and the things we all need to
> live.
> The basic essentials of life are sacrosanct and to tax them is to tax
> poverty.
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
> At 17:46 01/09/05 +0100, you wrote:
>>Hi Tony,
>>
>>Having more than your 'fair share' of something everyone needs is the
>>supreme luxury - monopolistic, exclusive!  And that is the effect of LVT.
>>Whether hard earned or not, capital property, as a class distinct from
>> real
>>property, does not sui generis prevent others attaining it.  Exclusive
>>occupancy of land does.
>>
>>As you say, land is a gift to mankind.  Not an individual man or woman.
>> It
>>seems right for whatever units mankind is arranged in - communities, to
>>ensure that such a gift is distributed equitably.  Since we no longer by
>>and large value land by whether or not it's enough of itself to support
>> our
>>basic needs, but in financial terms, the right way to do that would seem
>> to
>>be financially.
>>
>>And if there's enough rent in the land values to pay for government
>>spending, why tax anything else (apart from things you don't want to be
>>used - like other natural resources mainly)?  We would argue I think that
>>LVT is more progressive given the failing of the current income based
>>taxation system.
>>
>>Jock
>>
>>
>>
>>On 1 Sep 2005, at 16:47, Tony Gosling wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Jock,
>>>
>>>I reckon taxes should fall on luxuries and on the rich - never on
>>>necessities nor on everyone. Land should be essentially tax free as it
>>> was
>>>a free gift to mankind.
>>>
>>>Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>At 16:22 31/08/05 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>(Oops - I forgot to send this to the list!)
>>>>
>>>>You do understand that the "Development Land Tax' as proposed by the
>>>>
>>>government is NOT the Georgist land value tax that many of us propose?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I do not recognise your characterisation as applicable to "proper" land
>>>>
>>>value tax.  Indeed I would take an opposite view - that taxing our
>>> incomes
>>>and our hard earned capital wealth is slavery and was the final victory
>>> of
>>>the feudal landowners - shifting the tax off them and their unearned
>>> land
>>>based wealth and onto the newly 'liberated' proles who ended up with
>>>nothing to tax but the money they could make with their own hands.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>The whole point about "taxing what we all need to survive" is crucial.
>>>>
>>>What we "all need to survive" is access to land, not ownership of land.
>>>Less than half of us own anything, yet the rest of us survive, though in
>>>doing so frequently have to pay through the nose in rent to landlords
>>> who
>>>do nothing for their increasing wealth.  And a Georgist Land Tax,
>>> replacing
>>>taxation on all sorts of other things like income and capital investment
>>>returns, will redistribute from those who occupy more than they need in
>>> any
>>>given location to those whom they exclude by occupying too much in an
>>> area
>>>of high demand.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Let's be clear, I do not know any Land Value Tax campaigners who think
>>>>
>>>that the Barker-Prescott Development Land Tax is a good idea.  Indeed
>>> its
>>>effects, unlike with a Georgist Land Value Tax, would be, I believe,
>>>counter-productive in a whole plethora of ways.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Increasing density may be an appropriate response to need.  Oxford is
>>>> half
>>>>
>>>as dense as the greater London average for example.  The great debate at
>>>the moment is whether to slap hundreds of rows of new brick boxes onto
>>>green field sites or...well...not building them and doing nothing about
>>> the
>>>unmet need.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>But with a Land Value Tax yes, higher densities would be encouraged by
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>tax system working hand in hand with the planning system (both of which
>>> we
>>>at least have a democratic input to, where we don't with the total
>>> private
>>>monopoly of land ownership we have at present, but so would moving
>>> economic
>>>activity to less expensive, less overheated areas (something that was
>>> very
>>>difficult in a leased territory of a few hundred square miles with a
>>>hostile communist northern neighbour).
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Jock
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 31 Aug 2005, at 11:35, TLIO News wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Land Tax is slavery. It welds all landholders, including peasants, to a
>>>>financial system which gradually devours their labour. It's like
>>>> putting
>>>>VAT on children's clothes or bread, the meanest act taxing what we all
>>>>need
>>>>to survive.
>>>>Its also a method of taking land off individuals and putting it into
>>>> the
>>>>hands of the profit-making industrial agriculture and forestry
>>>> businesses.
>>>>Land Tax will force all landowners to produce the maximum from their
>>>> land
>>>>to pay the tax, turning the earth into nothing more than the factory
>>>> floor
>>>>of global capitalism. It assumes all land to be held from the state not
>>>> to
>>>>us as individuals. And forcing housebuilders to increase building
>>>> density
>>>>even further, just as in Hong Kong where land tax was trialed.
>>>>Land tax, just like rent or fuel prices, will be intrioduced to the
>>>> public
>>>>at a low rate, being jacked up to a higher rate as it becomes more
>>>>accepted.
>>>>Make no mistake, this is a major move toward our enslavement by the
>>>> Money
>>>>Masters of the Ruling Class.
>>>>
>>>>As Gerrard Winstanley the Digger said, in 'The Law of Freedom'.
>>>>'Money must not any longer be the great god that hedges in some and
>>>> hedges
>>>>out others.'
>>>>'You have taken the people's money in taxes and free quarter whereby
>>>> they
>>>>are made worse able to live than before the war.'
>>>>'The word of God is love, and when all thy actions are done in love to
>>>> the
>>>>whole creation thou advances freedom, and freedom is Christ in you and
>>>>Christ among you.' 'Bondage is Satan in you and Satan among you.'
>>>>'Everyone talks of freedom but there are few that act for freedom. The
>>>>actors for freedom are oppressed by the talkers and verbal professors
>>>> of
>>>>freedom.'
>>>>'The common people who have cast out the oppressor by their
>>>>representatives
>>>>have not authorised any yet to give away their freedom.'
>>>>'Therefore England beware, William the Conqueror's army begins to
>>>> gather
>>>>into head again and the old Norman prerogative law is the place of
>>>> their
>>>>meeting, though their chief captain, Charles, be gone, yet his
>>>> colonels,
>>>>lords of manors, his councillors and divines, which are our lawyers and
>>>>priests, his inferior officers and soldiers, which are the freeholders
>>>> and
>>>>landlords, all did steal away our land from us when they killed and
>>>>murdered our fathers in that Norman conquest.'
>>>>
>>>>Also,
>>>>Seems to me to be a convenient way of keeping house prices artificially
>>>>high staving off the crash.
>>>>I'm not interested in stopping debate about Land Tax but please, don't
>>>>believe the hype.
>>>>
>>>>Tony Gosling
>>>>
>>>>At 09:34 PM 8/30/05, you wrote:
>>>>http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article308976.ece
>>>>
>>>>Land tax will target housebuilders' profits
>>>>
>>>>By Andrew Grice, Political Editor
>>>>The Independent, 30 August 2005
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The Government is to bring in a "housing land tax" to share some of the
>>>>huge
>>>>windfall gains that are made when land is sold off for housebuilding.
>>>>
>>>>The move, which may raise hundreds of millions of pounds, could be
>>>>announced
>>>>by Gordon Brown in his pre-Budget report in November. A consultation
>>>>exercise
>>>>would follow before a final decision on the level of the new tax is
>>>> taken.
>>>>Individuals as well as developers could be hit by the tax, which would
>>>> be
>>>>paid at the moment when planning permission is granted for housing. In
>>>> an
>>>>attempt to stave off criticism that the plan would encourage building
>>>>in the
>>>>green belt, there could be a lower rate of tax for land in brownfield
>>>>sites.
>>>>
>>>>Although the proposal could be controversial, the money raised would
>>>> not be
>>>>retained by the Treasury but would be ploughed back into plans to
>>>> revive
>>>>local communities by providing housing and improving services. Part of
>>>> the
>>>>receipts could be earmarked for local authorities.
>>>>
>>>>Planning approval for homes to be built can vastly increase the value
>>>> of
>>>>land.
>>>>A study for the Government found that the value of farmland in the
>>>>South-east
>>>>would increase from £9,122 to £2.7m per hectare when it could be used
>>>> for
>>>>housing. In the North-east, the value would rise from £7,534 to £1.2m
>>>>and in
>>>>the east Midlands from £7,450 to £1.8m.
>>>>
>>>>The idea of imposing a tax on a landowner when planning permission is
>>>>granted
>>>>was first mooted by Kate Barker, a member of the Bank of England's
>>>> Monetary
>>>>Policy Committee, in a review of Britain's housing needs in March last
>>>>year.
>>>>It has now won the support of Mr Brown and John Prescott, the Deputy
>>>> Prime
>>>>Minister, who is responsible for housing and planning.
>>>>
>>>>While ministers would normally be wary of imposing a new, highly
>>>>visible tax,
>>>>they believe that the proposal can be justified on the grounds that
>>>> part of
>>>>the big windfalls now being enjoyed by the private sector should be
>>>> used to
>>>>finance the public services that new housing developments will need.
>>>>
>>>>Land is already subject to capital gains tax. Ms Barker argued in her
>>>>report
>>>>that the forms of development gains tax that had been tried in the past
>>>> had
>>>>failed because they distorted behaviour and raised less money than
>>>>expected.
>>>>Large landowners and speculators managed to avoid the tax but smaller
>>>>landowners were hit.
>>>>
>>>>She said the proposed tax would have to be accompanied by transitional
>>>>measures to soften the blow for developers, with land sales contracts
>>>> drawn
>>>>up before it was introduced and for those holding large amounts of land
>>>> for
>>>>which planning permission has not yet been given.
>>>>
>>>>But the plan will be opposed by the Tories, who warn that it would
>>>>provide an
>>>>incentive for developers to build expensive executive homes in the
>>>> green
>>>>belt.
>>>>
>>>>Yesterday, the Tories accused Mr Prescott of breaking a pledge that a
>>>>revaluation of business rates would not raise any extra revenue after
>>>>figures
>>>>showed companies were paying an extra £1.2bn a year in England.
>>>>
>>>>Caroline Spelman, the shadow Local Government Secretary, said: "
>>>> Business
>>>>rates, like council tax, are being used as a stealth tax.
>>>>
>>>>"Thanks to John Prescott's rigged rates revaluation, local firms are
>>>> being
>>>>taxed to the hilt, taking the average bill to £10,000 for the first
>>>> time."
>>>>She warned that householders would be hit when a revaluation of council
>>>> tax
>>>>took place.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"We are not for names, nor men, nor titles of Government,
>>>>nor are we for this party nor against the other but we are
>>>>for justice and mercy and truth and peace and true freedom,
>>>>that these may be exalted in our nation, and that goodness,
>>>>righteousness, meekness, temperance, peace and unity with
>>>>God, and with one another, that these things may abound."
>>>>(Edward Burroughs, 1659 - from 'Quaker Faith and Practice')
>>>>
>>>>Paul's new book, "Energy Beyond Oil", is out now!
>>>>For details see http://www.fraw.org.uk/ebo/book.html
>>>>
>>>>Paul Mobbs, Mobbs' Environmental Investigations
>>>>3 Grosvenor Road, Banbury OX16 5HN, England
>>>>tel./fax (+44/0)1295 261864
>>>>email - mobbsey at gn.apc.org
>>>>website - http://www.fraw.org.uk/mobbsey/index.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Diggers350 - an e-mail discussion/information-share list for
>>>> campaigners
>>>>involved with THE LAND IS OURS landrights network (based in the UK
>>>> ..web
>>>>ref. www.thelandisours.org). The list was originally concerned with the
>>>>350th anniversary of The Diggers (& still is concerned with their
>>>>history). The Diggers appeared at the end of the English Civil war with
>>>> a
>>>>mission to make the earth 'a common treasury for all'. In the spring of
>>>>1999 there were celebrations to remember the Diggers vision and their
>>>>contribution. Find out more about the Diggers and see illustrations at:
>>>>http://www.bilderberg.org/diggers.htm
>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Diggers350 - an e-mail discussion/information-share list for
>>>> campaigners
>>>>
>>>involved with THE LAND IS OURS landrights network (based in the UK ..web
>>>ref. www.thelandisours.org). The list was originally concerned with the
>>>350th anniversary of The Diggers (& still is concerned with their
>>> history).
>>>The Diggers appeared at the end of the English Civil war with a mission
>>> to
>>>make the earth 'a common treasury for all'. In the spring of 1999 there
>>>were celebrations to remember the Diggers vision and their contribution.
>>>Find out more about the Diggers and see illustrations at:
>>>http://www.bilderberg.org/diggers.htm
>>>
>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Jock Coats
>>>>At:
>>>>Corporate Information Systems, Computer Services,
>>>>AG17, Gipsy Lane Campus, Oxford Brookes University,
>>>>OX3 0BP
>>>>Work: +44 1865 483353
>>>>and at:
>>>>Wardens' Lodgings, Flat 1e, Block J Morrell Hall,
>>>>John Garne Way, OXFORD, OX3 0FF.
>>>>Home: +44 1865 485019 Mobile: +44 7769 695767
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>--
>>Jock Coats
>>At:
>>Corporate Information Systems, Computer Services,
>>AG17, Gipsy Lane Campus, Oxford Brookes University,
>>OX3 0BP
>>Work: +44 1865 483353
>>and at:
>>Wardens' Lodgings, Flat 1e, Block J Morrell Hall,
>>John Garne Way, OXFORD, OX3 0FF.
>>Home: +44 1865 485019 Mobile: +44 7769 695767
>>
>
>
>
> Diggers350 - an e-mail discussion/information-share list for campaigners
> involved with THE LAND IS OURS landrights network (based in the UK ..web
> ref. www.thelandisours.org). The list was originally concerned with the
> 350th anniversary of The Diggers (& still is concerned with their
> history). The Diggers appeared at the end of the English Civil war with a
> mission to make the earth 'a common treasury for all'. In the spring of
> 1999 there were celebrations to remember the Diggers vision and their
> contribution. Find out more about the Diggers and see illustrations at:
> http://www.bilderberg.org/diggers.htm
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>