[Diggers350] Can the earth feed its population sustainably?

Sat Apr 2 13:40:50 BST 2011

The 'world being fed on nitrogen fertilizers' aspect of the comment below needs to be understood as unsustainable - and this is the major problem - since growing food from chemicals that deplete the soil from natural fertility are no longer sustainable since they essentially kill off the world's fertility. Anyone who is part of TLIO should know this. 

Anyone who studies the theory behind organic agriculture vs. the chemical/fertilizer industry and its ties to the petro-chemical industry should be aware of this as a basic fact. 

Even BBC stalwart David Attenborough has stated that the world's BIGGEST MAJOR PROBLEM is soil fertility. 

That means that chemicals used to produce mass farming techniques do not work, and they are a false economy that is depleting the soil fertility of agricultural regions round the planet. 

Anyone who aims to represent TLIO should be aware of this fact and should be promoting diverse food growing systems that are actually much more efficient if you 'do the maths'. 

People claim that George M is doing the 'maths' - but actually he is not. 

I am sorry to say this - but I am already aware from doing extensive reading about nuclear energy and the nuclear energy industry that a very large amount of the 'details and figures' are deliberately hidden and not represented by the nuclear energy industry and that includes information that was recently represented to the UK government in relation to the effects of mutation on marine life in the North Sea as a result of pollutations caused by the nuclear industry. Mutation is a permanent impact on an eco-system - is not a temporary effect - it is a mass sterilisation of marine life - which is a massive danger to the planet. 

If people want to support population reduction please think carefully about how that might happen. The Chinese method is extremely authoritarian.

I am not going to support George M as a 'leader' any more. he hasn't been a 'leader' of TLIO for a long time so there is no reason for people from TLIO to support him - unless they want to discuss their issues with him in a democratic manner - as a viable organisation where people with different views are consulted in order to have a united and credible viewpoint - 

If people from TLIO want to act like individuals all competing with each other, using TLIO just as a name and a name only, with no action, adequate consultancy or debate within to have a united voice as an organisation - that's one thing - otherwise TLIo does not have a credible voice any more. Neither does George.

2 experts on nuclear energy, have now spoken against George's views. 
If he can't respect the views of people who are qualified experts on nuclear energy, who are commissioned as scientists specialised in this area, then we have to ask 'who is he representing' - because he is not speaking for any person in TLIO any more, and has not done so for a long time. Therefore there is no obligation for any person from TLIO to support his views. 

If people want to respect the credibility of TLIO - then they should consider how to give a public voice of TLIO or to discuss this matter with George, to ensure that TLIO has a respectable and qualified view on this matter - in my personal view. 

If anyone has any views on food sufficiency and biodiverse food farming matters and how to feed the planet - please feel free to go and do a permaculture course, with qualified experts who can educate people how food sufficiency is possible, within natural systems - and how current GM promotion using the petro-chemical industry, is simply a way to address the profit of the few. 

If people want to know who the nuclear industry is profitting - then please do some research into Bill Clinton (a major shareholder of Halliburton) and his connections to the Canadian nuclear fuels industry, and to their connections with Lockheed Martin and the nuclear weapons industry. 

How these are connected to the UK arms industry and people who are connected to the current Conservative Party (such as George's parents) would also be a matter to be looked into also. 

Lilia 

CC: tony at cultureshop.org.uk; diggers350 at yahoogroups.com; tliocoregroup at yahoogroups.com; liliapatterson at hotmail.com
To: dicegeorge at hotmail.com
From: chapter7 at tlio.org.uk
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 12:22:43 +0100
Subject: Re: [Diggers350] Monbiot's conversion, now 'loves' glowing example of Fukushima

Could we calm down a bit please and have less hyperbole and rancour?

I don't agree with George Monbiot's conclusions about nuclear energy, but  the maths needed doing, (or rather publicizing) and the chart he cited in his article was illuminating http://blog.xkcd.com/2011/03/19/radiation-chart/

I don't agree with Dice George that we need to reduce the population by 99 per cent, but I do agree that it needs to be reduced significantly. 

I agree with Lilia that it would be desirable for humans to grow and source more of their food locally, as local peasant economies use much less energy for everything than global capitalist economies.  But I am very sceptical that we could feed the entire world's population that way sustainably. Most people in China are fed on coal (for nitrogen fertilizer). The Amazon is full of biodiversity, but it can't feed many people.

I agree with Tony that population growth happens in traumatized societies under attack by the power elite; but it also happens because you can feed more people more easily when you produce  additional fertility through fossil fuels. There are probably now more people in the world than can be fed decently by a society weaning itself off fossil fuels.

All these problems are intractable and there is no obvious solution., so perhaps we could be a bit more tolerant of people who have a different opinion from our own?

Cheers

Simon Fairlie

On 2 Apr 2011, at 02:18, dicegeorge at hotmail dot com wrote:

I object strongly to Tony (or whoever)
adding the line
[(member in charge of comms in 'new TLIO' core group)]
into a copyrighted email I sent to him on March 22, 2011 12:06 PM
and making it appear that i am representing TLIO in this comment,
and then publishing it on his diggers350 email list on March 26, 2011 12:37 
PM

It is not OK for you to change  my private email messages,
and pass them off as written by me, and then to publish them.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that this is what has happened.

Also please note that the word 'exterminate' is Tony's not mine,
the Chinese one baby per couple policy was not extermination.

How would Tony apply his solution to London?
There was mass starvation in China when Mao moved city people into the 
fields.
~
~  [g]  ~  [george]  ~  george at dicenews.com   ~
~       07970 378 572    ~ ~       ~
~                    www.dicegeorge.com   (c)2011.  ~
~

>From Lilia:

Dear DiceGeorge,
Can you please give me some reasons to demonstrate the arguments behind your mass genocidal tendencies please as new representative of the 'new TLIO'. You certainly don't represent my views as a long-standing TLIO representative, who has also gone to European conferences to represent TLIO where scientists who gave consultancy to the EU on environmental issues were present.

>From my understanding, the planet does not necessarily have a problem with humans and food consumption, if they are able to be food-self-sufficient, which is not a problem when people are able to grow their own food locally using biodiverse methods which are in harmony with natural systems.

In fact, humans when allowed to grow and source their own food locally, can add massively to global ecological biodiversity, if they are allowed. The Brazilian rainforest for example, is a classic example of a massively biodiverse ecological system created and sustained by human intervention.

The nuclear industry instead in its various applications does not add to global ecological biodiversity, and in relation to supplying electricity to the world, is just one application, amongst many. If people had access to cheap affordable solar panels, they could provide their own electricity for themselves for their own basic needs. This is why the UK national grid is in fact giving support for people to supply their own electricity to themselves and to sell the electricity back to the grid to re-supply to other consumers in order to secure more sustainable long-term electricity use in the UK. There are a huge range of renewable sustainable non-carbon based alternatives to consumers to choose from, to supply themselves with electricity for their day to day needs. Therefore for someone like George Monbiot to support nuclear energy when he is not a qualified scientist specialising in energy consultancy, and to do advertising on behalf of the nuclear industry, means that his actions are therefore negligent, as the scientific advisor Dr. Chris Busby who is a qualified scientific expert on nuclear energy to the EU has in fact stated.

As you have stated that you instead support genocide of 95% of the world's population as representative of the 'new TLIO' can you also state your scientific backing for your argument, since normally my understanding of people who have genocidal tendencies, is that they should be put in hospitals for the clinically insane.

Otherwise can you let me know, is the 'new TlIO' like new labour, and the new conservatives where proposing to go to war against people in other countries is based on a profit motive, based on financial gain from supporting companies that profit from war, and conflict, otherwise known as supporting war criminals, and this is the only reason that they aim to support mass genocide against others, for their own short-term profit.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tony Gosling" <tony at cultureshop.org.uk>
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 12:37 PM
To: "Massimo" <diggers350 at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: fwd: [Diggers350] Monbiot's conversion, now 'loves' glowing 
example of Fukushima

George Monbiot is getting slagged off by greens for doing the maths!
The only longterm solution is reduction of human
population to less than 1% of what it is now - will people vote for that?
Or, Tony, what's your solution to our addiction to power and population 
growth?

dicegeorge (member in charge of comms in 'new TLIO' core group)
~
~  [g]  ~  [george]  ~  george at dicenews.com   ~
~       07970 378 572    ~ ~       ~
~                    www.dicegeorge.com   (c) 2011.  ~
~

[Worrying misuse of the word 'only' in line 2
george. Population growth happens in traumatised
unequal societies under attack by the power elite.]
[Solution: work locally, move to self-sufficient
post industrial society, renationalise railways &
utilities, redistribute land, use clean coal and way less energy 
generally]
[- surely a better move than exterminating 99% of
the world's population (useless eaters) which the power elite want? - 
Tony]

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Zardoz" <tony at cultureshop.org.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:41 AM
To: <Diggers350 at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Diggers350] Monbiot's conversion, now
'loves' glowing example of Fukushima

Our founder turned one trick climate pony -
George scribbles like a Zombie for the war and
money control Western power elite in the
Guardian today. These fascists require positive
press from fake environ-mentalists to put their
evil plans back on track since the developing Fukushima disaster.
No mention does Monbiot make of the need for
crippling public subsidy - motivation of entire
industry being for plutonium for weapons -
deadly legacy for hundreds of thousands of years
- nor of last week's accident at Oldbury nuke station in Gloucestershire.

Neither will you find in the Guardian today
anything that Jeremy Corbyn, John MacDonald or
dennis Skinner said in yesterday's commons 'debate' on Libya.

Oldbury reactor failure leads to 'mildly' radioactive steam release
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/news/Concern-plumes-steam-Oldbury-nuclear-station/article-3348796-detail/article.html
Reactor 2 was automatically and safely shut down
following an electrical problem on conventional
plant in the site's turbine hall.
"Post trip cooling on Reactor 2 has commenced
successfully. Investigations into the cause of this event are ongoing."

Why Fukushima made me stop worrying and love nuclear power
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/21/pro-nuclear-japan-fukushima
Japan's disaster would weigh more heavily if
there were less harmful alternatives. Atomic
power is part of the mix up in my brain

Want some real news and not this City of London
financed hypnotic pseudo-left tripe?
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/
http://www.whatreallyhapened.com
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info
http://www.antiwar.com
http://www.globalresearch.ca

Tony

--- In Diggers350 at yahoogroups.com, Tony Gosling <tony at ...> wrote:

A cloud of nuclear mistrust spreads around the world
March 16, 2011
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/a-cloud-of-nuclear-mistrust-spreads-around-the-world-2242988.html
http://thetruthiswhere.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/a-cloud-of-nuclear-mistrust-spreads-around-the-world/

After decades of lies, nuclear reassurances now fall on deaf ears

Special report by Michael McCarthy

It is unprecedented: four atomic reactors in dire
trouble at once, three threatening meltdown from
overheating, and a fourth hit by a fire in its
storage pond for radioactive spent fuel.

All day yesterday, dire reports continued to
circulate about the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear
plant, faced with disaster after Japan's tsunami
knocked out its cooling systems. Some turned out
to be false: for example, a rumour, disseminated
by text message, that radiation from the plant
had been spreading across Asia. Others were true:
that radiation at about 20 times normal levels
had been detected in Tokyo; that Chinese airlines
had cancelled flights to the Japanese capital;
that Austria had moved it embassy from Tokyo to
Osaka; that a 24-hour general store in Tokyo's
Roppongi district had sold out of radios, torches, candles and sleeping 
bags.

But perhaps the most alarming thing was that
although Naoto Kan, Japan's Prime Minister, once
again appealed for calm, there are many - in
Japan and beyond - who are no longer prepared to be reassured.

The scale of the alarm is the remarkable thing:
how it has gone round the world (Angela Merkel
has imposed a moratorium on nuclear energy; in
France, there are calls for a referendum); how
it's even displaced the terrible story of Japan's
tsunami itself from the front-page headlines. But
then, public alarm about nuclear safety, as the
Fukushima emergency proves, is very easy to raise
- and, as the Japanese authorities are now discovering, very hard to 
calm.

The reason is an industry which from its
inception, more than half a century ago, has
taken secrecy to be its watchword; and once that
happens, cover-ups and downright lies often
follow close behind. The sense of crisis
surrounding Japan's stricken nuclear reactors is
exacerbated a hundredfold by the fact that, in an
emergency, public trust in the promoters of
atomic power is virtually non-existent. On too
many occasions in Britain, in America, in Russia,
in Japan - pick your country - people have not
been told the truth (and have frequently been
told nothing at all) about nuclear misadventures.

To understand the mania for secrecy, we have to
go back to nuclear power's origins. This was not
a technology dreamt up as a replacement for
coal-fired power stations; this is a military
technology, conceived in a life-or-death
struggle, which has been modified for civilian
purposes. At its heart is the nuclear chain
reaction, the self-sustaining atom-splitting
process ("fission") which occurs when enough
highly radioactive material is brought together,
and which produces other radioactive elements
("fission products"), and a release of energy.

When it was first achieved by the physicists
Enrico Fermi and Leo Szilard, in an atomic "pile"
built in a squash court of the University of
Chicago in December 1942, it merely produced
heat; but all those involved understood that if
it could be speeded up, it would produce the
biggest explosive power ever known. And so was
born the Manhattan Project, the US undertaking to
build the atom bomb which was, while it lasted, history's biggest secret.

Secrecy came with nuclear energy, like a
birthmark, and, indeed, for 10 years after the
first A-bomb was dropped on Hiroshima in August
1945, it remained a covert military technology,
although first the Russians, and then the
British, followed the Americans in developing it.
Britain built a pair of atomic reactors at
Windscale on the Cumbrian coast, which produced
(as a fission product) plutonium, the material
used in the first British nuclear weapon. That
was exploded off the coast of Australia in 1952.
And it was in one of these reactors that the
world's first really serious nuclear accident
occurred: the Windscale fire of October 1957. The
reactor's core, made of graphite, caught light,
melted and burned substantial amounts of the
uranium fuel, and released large amounts of
radioactivity. It was the most serious nuclear
calamity until Chernobyl nearly 30 years later,
but the British government did all it could to
minimise its significance, trying at first to
keep it a complete secret (the local fire brigade
was not notified for 24 hours) and keeping the
official report confidential until 1988.

It was to be the first of many such nuclear
alarms and cover-ups at Windscale. In 1976, for
example, the secrecy surrounding a major leak of
radioactive water infuriated the then Technology
Minister, Tony Benn, who supported nuclear power,
when he learnt of it. But similar cover-ups were
happening all around the world.

At the US atomic weapons plant at Rocky Flats,
Colorado, there were numerous mishaps involving
radioactive material which were kept secret over
four decades, from the 1950s to the 1980s. In
Russia, the province of Chelyabinsk, just east of
the Urals, housed a major atomic weapons complex,
which was the site of three major nuclear
disasters: radioactive waste dumping and the
explosion of a waste containment unit in the
1950s, and a vast escape of radioactive dust in
1967. It is estimated that about half a million
people in the region were irradiated in one or
more of the incidents, exposing them to as much
as 20 times the radiation suffered by the
Chernobyl victims. None of which, of course, was
disclosed at the time. Chelyabinsk is sometimes
referred to now as "the most polluted place on the planet".

When we turn to Japan, we find an identical
culture of nuclear cover-up and lies. Of
particular concern has been the Tokyo Electric
Power Company (Tepco), Asia's biggest utility,
which just happens to be the owner and operator
of the stricken reactors at Fukushima.

Tepco has a truly rotten record in telling the
truth. In 2002, its chairman and a group of
senior executives had to resign after the
Japanese government disclosed they had covered up
a large series of cracks and other damage to
reactors, and in 2006 the company admitted it had
been falsifying data about coolant materials in
its plants over a long period.

Last night it was reported that the International
Atomic Energy Agency warned Japan more than two
years ago that strong earthquakes would pose
"serious problems", according to a Wikileaks US
embassy cable published by The Daily Telegraph.

Even Chernobyl, the world's most publicised
nuclear accident, was at first hidden from the
world by what was then the Soviet Union, and
might have remained hidden had its plume of
escaping radioactivity not been detected by scientists in Sweden.

So why do they do it? Why does the instinct to
hide everything persist, even now, when the major
role of nuclear energy has decisively shifted
from the military to the civil sector? Perhaps it
is because there is an instinctive and indeed
understandable fear among the public about
nuclear energy itself, about this technology
which, once its splits its atoms, releases deadly forces.

The nuclear industry is terrified of losing
public support, for the simple reason that it has
always needed public money to fund it. It is not,
even now, a sector which can stand on its own two
feet economically. So when it finds it has a
problem, its first reaction is to hide it, and
its second reaction is to tell lies about it. But
the truth comes out in the end, and then the
public trusts the industry even less than it
might have done, had it admitted the problem.

It doesn't have to be like this. A quarter of a
century ago, Britain's nuclear industry acquired
a leader who for a few years transformed its
public image: Christopher Harding. He was an open
and honest man who thought that the paranoia and
secrecy surrounding nuclear power should be swept away.

When he became chairman of British Nuclear Fuels,
which ran the Windscale plant, he decided on a
new order of things. He renamed it Sellafield,
and, to general astonishment, decreed that
instead of sullenly turning its back to the
public, it should welcome them with open arms. He
did the unthinkable: he opened a visitor centre!

Harding died young in 1999, but he was, in his
lifetime an exceptional man: not only for his
charm and his personal kindness - he was revered
by Sellafield employees - but for his vision of a
nuclear industry which would be better off
dealing with its problems through transparency
and honesty, rather than through obfuscation and
deceit. But he was, unfortunately, the exception who proved the rule.

The rest of the nuclear industry has been
dissembling for so long, and caught out in its
lies so often, that the chance for trust may have
passed. Even if, as I suspect, the Japanese
government is trying to be reasonably up front
about the problems at Fukushima, it is by no
means certain that anything it says about the
nuclear part of their nation's catastrophe will be believed.
+44 (0)7786 952037
http://tonygosling.blip.tv/
http://www.thisweek.org.uk/
http://www.911forum.org.uk/
"Capitalism is institutionalised bribery."
_________________
www.abolishwar.org.uk
<http://www.elementary.org.uk>www.elementary.org.uk
www.public-interest.co.uk
www.radio4all.net/index.php/series/Bristol+Broadband+Co-operative
<http://utangente.free.fr/2003/media2003.pdf>http://utangente.free.fr/2003/media2003.pdf

"The maintenance of secrets acts like a psychic
poison which alienates the possessor from the community" Carl Jung
<https://217.72.179.7/members/www.bilderberg.org/phpBB2/>https://217.72.179.7/members/www.bilderberg.org/phpBB2/

------------------------------------

Diggers350 - an e-mail
discussion/information-share list for
campaigners and members of THE LAND IS OURS
landrights network based in the UK http://www.tlio.org.uk

The list was originally concerned with the 350th
anniversary of The Diggers (& still is concerned
with their history). The Diggers appeared at the
end of the English Civil war with a noble
mission to make the earth 'a common treasury for
all'. In the spring of 1999 there were
celebrations to remember the Diggers vision and their contribution.

TASH FROM THE HILL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWk9rRJsk5I

THE LAND MAGAZINE
Simon Fairlie still produces The Land magazine every 6 months or so.
Subsription is £18 (£15 unwaged) or £4 for a single edition
Contributions are welcome http://www.thelandmagazine.org.uk/

THE SCYTHE SHOP (advertisement)
There is a revival of scything in the UK.
Scything summer growth by hand is usually
quicker than using a strimmer, and there is no
noise, vibration or pollution. Mowing an acre of
grass with a scythe is probably less hassle than
maintaining and using a motor scythe. Once you
have learnt how to sharpen and use an Austrian
scythe properly, mowing a meadow by hand becomes
a joy, rather than a struggle. http://www.thescytheshop.co.uk/

SOCIAL JUSTICE FILMS AND DVDS
Today, many of the best TV programmes are
broadcast in the wee small hours. Some
outstanding films don't make it onto TV at all!
You need miss out no longer. At CultureShop.org
you can buy historic independent media at a
sensible price. http://www.cultureshop.org

You can find out more about the Diggers and see
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Brendan Boal from the Climate Camp would like me
to point out that Bilderberg.org is my private
web site and as such is not officially part of The Land Is Ours.
Neither is this web site:
http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/memos.htmlYahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Diggers350 - an e-mail discussion/information-share list for campaigners 
and members of THE LAND IS OURS landrights network based in the UK 
http://www.tlio.org.uk

The list was originally concerned with the 350th anniversary of The 
Diggers (& still is concerned with their history). The Diggers appeared at 
the end of the English Civil war with a noble mission to make the earth 'a 
common treasury for all'. In the spring of 1999 there were celebrations to 
remember the Diggers vision and their contribution.

TASH FROM THE HILL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWk9rRJsk5I

THE LAND MAGAZINE
Simon Fairlie still produces The Land magazine every 6 months or so.
Subsription is £18 (£15 unwaged) or £4 for a single edition
Contributions are welcome http://www.thelandmagazine.org.uk/

THE SCYTHE SHOP (advertisement)
There is a revival of scything in the UK. Scything summer growth by hand 
is usually quicker than using a strimmer, and there is no noise, vibration 
or pollution. Mowing an acre of grass with a scythe is probably less 
hassle than maintaining and using a motor scythe. Once you have learnt how 
to sharpen and use an Austrian scythe properly, mowing a meadow by hand 
becomes a joy, rather than a struggle. http://www.thescytheshop.co.uk/

SOCIAL JUSTICE FILMS AND DVDS
Today, many of the best TV programmes are broadcast in the wee small 
hours. Some outstanding films don't make it onto TV at all! You need miss 
out no longer. At CultureShop.org you can buy historic independent media 
at a sensible price. http://www.cultureshop.org

You can find out more about the Diggers and see illustrations at: 
http://www.bilderberg.org/land/

Brendan Boal from the Climate Camp would like me to point out that 
Bilderberg.org is my private web site and as such is not officially part 
of The Land Is Ours.
Neither is this web site: 
http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/memos.htmlYahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Diggers350 - an e-mail discussion/information-share list for campaigners and members of THE LAND IS OURS landrights network based in the UK http://www.tlio.org.uk

The list was originally concerned with the 350th anniversary of The Diggers (& still is concerned with their history). The Diggers appeared at the end of the English Civil war with a noble mission to make the earth 'a common treasury for all'. In the spring of 1999 there were celebrations to remember the Diggers vision and their contribution. 

TASH FROM THE HILL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWk9rRJsk5I

THE LAND MAGAZINE
Simon Fairlie still produces The Land magazine every 6 months or so. 
Subsription is £18 (£15 unwaged) or £4 for a single edition
Contributions are welcome http://www.thelandmagazine.org.uk/

THE SCYTHE SHOP (advertisement)
There is a revival of scything in the UK. Scything summer growth by hand is usually quicker than using a strimmer, and there is no noise, vibration or pollution. Mowing an acre of grass with a scythe is probably less hassle than maintaining and using a motor scythe. Once you have learnt how to sharpen and use an Austrian scythe properly, mowing a meadow by hand becomes a joy, rather than a struggle. http://www.thescytheshop.co.uk/

SOCIAL JUSTICE FILMS AND DVDS
Today, many of the best TV programmes are broadcast in the wee small hours. Some outstanding films don't make it onto TV at all! You need miss out no longer. At CultureShop.org you can buy historic independent media at a sensible price. http://www.cultureshop.org

You can find out more about the Diggers and see illustrations at: http://www.bilderberg.org/land/

Brendan Boal from the Climate Camp would like me to point out that Bilderberg.org is my private web site and as such is not officially part of The Land Is Ours. 
Neither is this web site: http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/memos.htmlYahoo! Groups Links